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1. 02:31 AM - List Fund Raiser - New Gift Addition! (Matt Dralle)
2. 07:06 AM - Cockpit Module went in On Sunday (EuropaXSA276@aol....)
3. 07:14 AM - Navaid Device for sale (JEFF ROBERTS)
4. 07:47 AM - Ideas For Seat Pans (EuropaXSA276@aol....)
5. 10:29 AM - Re: Tailspring Advice (Fred Fillinger)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Nigel Graham)
7. 11:59 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Tony Krzyzewski)
8. 12:01 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Ronald J. Parigoris)
9. 12:08 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Trevpond@aol....)
10. 12:50 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (EuropaXSA276@aol....)
11. 12:54 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (EuropaXSA276@aol....)
12. 03:35 PM - Re: Ideas For Seat Pans (N55XS)
13. 04:38 PM - TP12 drive plates (Graham Singleton)
14. 06:08 PM - Need Schematic for Lakeland Supplied harness (Ronald J. Parigoris)
15. 08:06 PM - Re: Cockpit Module went in On Sunday (Fred Fillinger)
Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises (www.kitlog.com) has generously
contributed free registered copies of his great Windows kit logging
software called Kitlog Pro to support this year's List Fund
Raiser! Beginning on November 13, anyone making a List Contribution of $50
or more will qualify to receive the Windows web site download distribution
of Kitlog Pro along with an official registration number via email on
December 5th. The offer will continue through the end of the Fund Raiser.
I want to thank Andy Gold (www.buildersbooks.com) and Paul Besing for their
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year! Won't you take a minute and support these Lists as well? It is
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Contribution can be found here:
I Know.... I said I would install the Module over 60 days ago. A few things
got in the way. Like Water Drain Mod, deciding what I would do about fuel
lines, Sunday football.
At any account it is in and I would like to post an overview of the details.
I used combined suggestions from this group for this procedure.
First I portioned out 1 KG of Araldite resin. Used about 800G of this.
Approximately 75G < And this is just a guess> was scraped away as it oozed out
the joints. I spread the Araldite / Flox mixture about 1/4 inch on the C/M.
Thicker in problem areas. I then spread extra Mix in the problem areas of the
fuselage were large gaps had been noted before during the final fitting and
To seat the module I used 3, 2" wide ratchet type cargo straps. One placed at
mid Tunnel. Then over the head restraints. Lastly over the cargo area. Bricks
were piled up to the high of the fuselage walls and 2X4 boards placed on them
cut to the width of the fuselage. The 2X4 boards were used to place the
straps exactly against the walls to prevent indentations on the sides as the epoxy
2 bags of concrete mix were place in the seat pans.
I then check for voids by shining a bright light through the structure.
I used 35 self tapping screws to close voids. Lightly screwed them in to
close gaps but not form a dimple on the outer fuselage. Screws are mostly in the
floor areas. Especially in the foot area in front on the seat. This area
seemed to have the poorest fit and the thickest fill of Araldite and flox.
< All photos on the build site below. See Chapter 17 Album>
All this done I still have a few small voids. I would say the sizes range
about as big around as my little finger. Perhaps no more than 5 or 6 of these in
Areas around the knee hump of the seat are a very tight fit and have a very
THIN layer of epoxy. This looks like a void area when shining a light through
the wall. I am concerned about this area not having enough epoxy.
My guess is that the amount of voids I have is about average? Comments?
I did buy a few large hypo needles from the local Vet supply that can be used
to fill some voids. I'm wondering if these few are worth the trouble and if
they would have much impact on structural integrity.
All Comments on this subject are most welcomed.
In addition I would like to thank the 15 or more of you that responded to my
questions on this subject Two months ago! Your ideas and opinion were most
valuable. Thanks to all.
Time: 07:14:18 AM PST US
From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm...>
Subject: Europa-List: Navaid Device for sale
--> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm...>
I have changed my mind and have decided to sell my Navaid Device / Auto
It is brand new and has never been installed. Still in the box as they
say. Anyone anywhere please contact me off list if you are interested.
Im sorry I didn't keep your name but If the gentleman that was wanting
to buy it before from the UK would call or contact me I would
Smyrna TN USA
Making fuel filler cover and other interior parts.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
> I am supposed to attach it with 2 holes for AN3-12A
> bolts, 1/2" apart, and am wondering if people reckon
> I need a machine shop to make it an interference fit
> (extra tight requiring a hammer to tap them home),
> or whether conventional drilling and bolting would
> be OK.
Assuming you have a drill press and cutting oil, an accurate 3/16"
drill is an interference fit by default for an AN3 bolt, but in thick
steel, you'll likely have to ream it out a few hairs to be able to
even hammer it in. However, I've never encountered a small bolt on a
production aircraft that's an intentional interference fit requiring a
hammer, with that installation method specified in the service manual.
Or at least not in the presence of one ornery, old airframe mechanic I
Or, how about a numbered drill? My chart suggests #12 (.1890"), and
you'd want a new one anyway. Or, the "NAS" bolts I have are tighter on
the shank than AN3, making a 4.8mm drill OK. I think they're called
NAS, or close-tolerance, the kind with the big dimple on the top.
I can't help on your other questions, and even a picture of the setup
may not help this nonengineer. You're adding a 4" extension onto
something subject to stresses nine ways from Sunday. But I checked
several taildraggers at the airport, and I saw AN3's on all of them,
in pairs or even just one in various places in the different designs.
Especially on the Luscombe there, most similar in gross weight to
Europa, it sure looks like something should have broken or the 3/16"
holes enlarged since 1946, but the guy will tell you no.
You can't be serious to suggest such an foolish motor to power an Europa. Even
though it may work, the craft would be hard to balance because it would be very
tail heavy, and the installation is not very conducive to keep the back end of
the plane from burning off.
Now if you would have suggested placing a small pulse jet at the tip of each
blade of a CS 4 bladed prop, making the smallest of simple very aerodynamic
cowlings (reverse funnel), with the prop way out in front which would give you
ample clearance for the 8 foot diameter, and a small but powerful Brushless 3
phase DC motor (60,000 rpm with planetary redrive) that would start the beast
and even allow it to sustain for a while or a longer while by adding more
batteries, and storing the LiIon batteries in the wings. It would be run by
propane which is easy to feed, and have a heat exchanger that would convert the
liquid propane to gas and keep the pressure up. This heat exchanger would dump
some heat to the cockpit in the winter from the hot side, and remove some heat
in the summer form the cold side.The FWF could as quickly exchanged as the
glider wings can.
Then you would be onto something!
Please send a photo of the testing fire when the LiIons catch fire! Please send
a photo of Europa Glider thermaling above that fire when the BLEVE happens.
(Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion) when the propane tanks rupture.
In a message dated 11/15/2004 1:23:14 PM Central Standard Time,
This is the future.....................or perhaps the end?
That's it!!!! You've convinced me Nigel! The engine goes in the rear! I
just wished Europa had used the fire retardant composition on the empennage!
In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:01:00 PM Central Standard Time,
However you might have a bit of a problem meeting noise emission
profiles at most airports as the pulsejet is just a tad noisy and tends
to upset the neighbours somewhat!
Perhaps you could invite the neighbors over after a flight to demonstrate
that the aircraft also makes a damn good backyard barbecue. That might alleviate
>--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.... >
>Howdy again Gents.
>Now that my module is in place, I'm looking for ideas on manufacturing the
>seat pans. Anyone have a few photos on this subject that they would like to
>One note is that I have fuel line and filter routing under both seats. Ah la
Check out May 30th on my build site. They are made of 1/4" ply.
Congrats on the module...
At 23:56 14/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>More detail please Graham!
>This would all have been done through an access hole? How big and what is
>the optimum location to be able to achieve the feat?
>I've done mine by crawling back down the inside of the fus. But if I had (or
>have!) to do it again I would put a second and larger access hole into the
We used the standard three holes, the small visibility hole in the base of
the fin, (which I would recommend to make slightly larger,)
the forward hole alongside the joggle in the fuselage seem, which HAS to be
big enough to get your arm right in past the elbow.
Finally the tailwheel spring hole under the tailplane is also used. Mostly
during re assembly by the helper. (Pete Churms in my case)
A third hand Mole grip or similar toggle grip is essential, the designer
didn't realize we would need to get two hands inside.
1 take out the top bolt that holds the balance arm in place.
2 swing the arm and the TP12 plates back to slacken the side support
cables. then take out the lower bolt and lay the balance arm aside.
Remove the bolt attaching the pitch push rod.
3 now cut off the bent over ends of the nearest accessible split pin
and remove the 1/4" drive pin. We used a Dremel with a cut
off wheel.The two outer pins should be removed first, this will allow
the assembly to be moved to one side which makes removing the two
middle drive pins easier.
Next stage is drill and ream the cross tube assembly, each one was set up
in the machine by lining up the existing holes in the drilling machine with
a 1/4" rod. Then changing to a metric drill (about .370D) finally reaming
to size very slowly.
It's vital to keep the assembly in its original assembled position, so we
kept each pin in place before and after reaming to keep everything aligned.
Assembly was more or less the reverse of the above but took quite a loit
longer. It worked well though
> All this done I still have a few small voids. I would say the sizes
> about as big around as my little finger. Perhaps no more than 5 or 6
of these in
> Areas around the knee hump of the seat are a very tight fit and have
> THIN layer of epoxy. This looks like a void area when shining a
> the wall. I am concerned about this area not having enough epoxy.
> My guess is that the amount of voids I have is about average?
> I did buy a few large hypo needles from the local Vet supply that
can be used
> to fill some voids. I'm wondering if these few are worth the
trouble and if
> they would have much impact on structural integrity.
Yours came out better than mine, sounds like. Thin glue shouldn't be
any different than thick glue, and may be preferable. I'm reminded of
woodworking advice where clamping is desirable to squeeze it out,
though the shear and peel strength of the glue you'd think is better
than the wood. You can check for actual voids by tapping with a coin
on the outside.
One thing I did to mine was sand and apply a not real fussy job of
light-weight filler at the seam edges, then sand and prime and some
speckle paint. Hoping not to earn an empty weight record, and it sure
looks better visually. But the real idea was any debonding down the
road would be evident in inspections, as in the raw state, you may not
see cracks. But my bias is toward maintenance, aging and weary after
24 years of supervised annual inspections on 15L and seeking ways to
not replicate design and construction methods that don't make that job